Carlos Munez' Transracial, Transnational Adoptee Story

Transcript:

S2E86 MEET CARLOS MUNEZ, TRANSRACIAL AND TRANSNATIONAL ADOPTEE This transcript was generated automatically and its accuracy may vary.

0:00 Hey there, it's Melissa Brunetti and welcome to the Mind Your Own Karma podcast. Hey there Karma crew.

0:16 Thanks for joining me for another episode of Mind Your Own Karma, The Adoption Chronicles. Today I have a special guest. Let me tell you a little bit about Carlos. It was in the 1990s when Carlos was brought to the UK at 8 months old. 0:32

As a transracial adoptee, he's experienced a loving home and a happy childhood. Despite some big identity challenges, his relationship with adoption has been one of acceptance and growth from a child to an adult. He's on a journey now to share his own story about being proud of who you are and making the best out of what life has dealt you.

0:54 He's hoping you will take something from his story, even if it's only a small part, and follow his latest project. Here is my interview with Carlos Nunez. Hey Karma crew, this is Jen and I'm the editor and producer of Mind Your Own Karma.

1:11 I hope you'll sit tight for just a minute while I slip in here and relay a quick message. Melissa's coming up on two years of podcasting on December 20th, 2023. Mind your Own Karma will be two years old. Melissa has put this out into the world as a labor of love, and I know she's gained so much from all your stories as she's endeavored to mirror them out into the big world every week.

1:32 Now Melissa has a day job, but do you know how much income she's made from the podcast in those two years? $70.00. That breaks down to less than a dollar per episode. And since Spotify has changed their requirements for ads. Mind your own Karma doesn't even qualify for AD revenue anymore.

1:50 So what I want to suggest is that listeners support is important, and you can do that for as little as $0.99 a month. Now, if only one person did that, Melissa would be earning more than she is right now. For all of the work that she's doing to educate the world about the importance of adoption and the impact that it has on people's lives, the link to show your support of Melissa and her amplification of voices in the adoption constellation.

2:14 Is in her link tree at linktree.com/mind your own karma. Thank you for your patience. And now back to the episode. We are welcoming Carlos to the show today. Hi, Carlos. Hi there. I just want to start with, what do you know about why you were put up for adoption?

2:34 What story were you told? I was told that I came over as a baby so quite young and that my birth mother couldn't keep me. And where were you born? I was born in Lima in Peru.

2:50 At time at Lima or Peru was in the middle of a war, civil war. So I was told that a lot of factors because of that played a part in that decision and many of us are told. It was a hard decision. Obviously. It wasn't a decision she would have wanted to make, but she made a decision based on those factors as the best thing for me, which was kind of a nice story to be told in one way, but sad at the same time.

3:16 But I could appreciate that and I understood that. And I was told, Little Bits as I was growing up, that we're kind of not too of a parent as a 5 year old, but it was little bits of Drake Fed as I get older that it kind of just felt like a normal story. In fact, consistent as was growing up, it wasn't changed or there was no kind of distrust that maybe there was something I missed there.

3:37 So actually it was consistent and and I believe that. And so where did you go when you were adopted? You went from Peru to. From when I was born in in Lima, I was looked after in foster care for four months by a little foster mother.

3:54 I don't know much more than that. And then when I was four months old, that's when my mum collected me or was handed handed me. And then from that point, I stayed in Lima for four months. And while the legal stuff happened, my mum stayed there in an apartment with other other mums that were adopting other families as well, from Europe or across the world.

4:14 So there was, I guess, a cohort of them, yeah. Four months she stayed in Lima before she was able to come home with me. And then yeah. So she had to stay there until the adoption was final. Yeah, the courts had to. I guess permit me to leave and so I had a stamp in my passport that sort of said I was permitted to leave.

4:33 But also when I was in the uki don't have to claim rights to be in the UK so you had to battle in the in improve and in battle to keep me in England. But yeah, it was quite complex. So you went to England when you were adopted after the four months? Yeah, the north of England, yeah.

4:50 Yeah. So what was it like in your adoptive family growing up? Good experience? Bad experience. What was it? Like, I always look back and see all the good things. I'm a bit half, what is it? Cup, half full kind of kind of thing. I mean it.

5:06 It was like any childhood. I rode my bike, I had fun, I had friends, had a quite carefree childhood. My my mum and dad did split up when I was 5, which, you know, wouldn't necessarily expect, after all the, I guess, the challenges they faced in having children in the first place.

5:25 But I can totally appreciate where my dad was in his life and where my mum was and it was the right decision. And I'm quite grateful that I was raised by pretty much predominately raised by my mum and she gave me every opportunity, every kind of bit of love that I needed.

5:41 There was nothing, you know, he tried to play 2, two parent, a sort of role in in my life. I was an only child which is always easier you know and to split your time and all that so. Yeah, I was pretty much the centre of our lives. She gave everything she could and she listened.

5:57 We had lots of in depth discussions as I got a bit older about Peru about my adoption. So it was nothing hidden I don't think. Do you remember being told that you were adopted, or did you always know? I have a memory of I must have been about 7:00, and I know I was told when I was younger because I remember being told about Paddington Bear had come from Peru and that was kind of like.

6:19 A figure of a character that I could somewhat relate to as a kid, but I remember being as young as 7, going to primary school and telling all my my friends in primary school that I had brothers and sisters and they were like me. You don't because obviously they knew I was an only child and they'd been to my house and played.

6:37 I was like, no, I do. But I have. I have brothers and sisters in Peru and it just totally flawed everybody in like my my social circle. But I knew that I had siblings. I knew I had. I found a birth family in Peru and I obviously felt compelled at 2nd to tell people that.

6:54 Yeah, growing up there, no siblings and your adoptive parents never were able to have children. No, I think they were. They were older parents. I think they were 3536 when they adopted me.

7:10 They tried. My mother had IVF and all sorts and and it was just wasn't. Meant to be, but it she had that thing. She's just like got that nurturing, caring thing where she's like always like she always said.

7:26 Like she was always a mother who was always caring but she just didn't have a child so and everybody that meets us when we're together sort of gets that that we have that connection. So she was almost like waiting for a child to share that love with. Yeah, I was lucky enough to or being that child.

7:44 So I don't want to assume that, but did you look like your adoptive parents at all? No. So that that was the the interesting thing in, I guess growing up there was no other white mums and brown babies. I was a bit of a enigma to to people in the town that I grew up in.

8:02 The fact that I didn't speak Spanish. I came out with a broad northern accent, which in England is kind of, you know, when you speak English and that accent comes out, it doesn't look like my face. So people would come up to you and look at you and go are you guys sort of together or what what are you kind of thing?

8:20 You get that feeling of people are questioning. So we'd stand quite close together. We'd try and make it obvious that we were family of some sort and we yeah, there were definitely times, probably in the 90s, early 2000s where it really flowed, people to seeing goes out and about or even our own family members sometimes or friends sort of seeing how close we were, almost closer than.

8:42 Biologically related, you know, parents and children. So I was quite sensible kid. I listened to my mum and like I didn't sort of do too many things that were naughty as a kid. Whereas she'd have her friends come over on my friends and they'd be like, why is it, why have they done this?

8:59 And my kids don't listen to me and I'm they're like, I listened to my mum. They couldn't quite understand why we had that connection and why I listened and why. I just respected her and she respected me and we had gave each other the freedom. We didn't suffocate each other. Yeah, it wasn't.

9:14 Yeah, it was. It sounds idyllic. Obviously there wasn't. I definitely did things that were telling any parent, but I think people came around to the idea eventually that it didn't really matter what colour your skin was. Yeah. Did your mum ever remarry while you were still in the house?

9:30 No, no. I've had that full attention all my life, pretty much. Wow. Lucky. Yeah, yes, definitely. I've got two kids, so I'm starting to realise now what it's like having to share your time. So I do. I don't know how lucky I was to have had that attention.

9:48 So how was that having your kids being adopted and seeing your own flesh and blood like that? That's where it all snowballed really. So I'd obviously grown up, had in my childhood and not really questioned much about my adoption. I got defensive about it, but when people questioned me about my colour and my mom, I felt like I defended it and showed a positive side to it and people would have got on board with that.

10:12 Then I met my wife. My wife is white. They obviously wanted kids. We kind of both knew we wanted kids and that was sort of down the road and in the sort of preparation to that, we ended up having to have IVF ourselves and IUI. So that desire to be a parent was sort of.

10:28 A long journey. It wasn't isn't just surprises. So there was time to contemplate being a parent and then obviously that that journey kind of was the seed that started my thoughts about my own birth family and then my daughter arriving just really kind of just blew it out of the water.

10:48 Do you think being adopted affected how you parented your own children at all? I think were you overprotective or the? Whole open and honest policy kind of thing is definitely followed through because my daughter is she's 4, so she's very doesn't miss a thing.

11:05 So we're obviously introducing to her that obviously her nanny is white and I am brown. So we're being open and honest about it as much as I was granted and given that open immensely stuff, so she understands the concepts, it's like it's really not.

11:21 A big deal she she's been into school and she said my daddy's were brown and my daddy's adopted and she knows what it means. She just she's just quite proud to sort of express that. So we have every hope and faith that just if we carry on being that way she'll grow up like I did with kind of no questions.

11:43 And so she's older and that's that's when you want to have those conversations. You don't want him to be a child and right? Just to almost not to be be too afraid to ask questions. Right, definitely. So how have you seen being adopted? How has that shaped you?

12:00 Been a journey, been a real journey. I think I'm only really coming into my own with it in the last sort of three or four years where I've become, I guess, truly proud about it.

12:18 And I don't know whether that's again because of having my own children. That's kind of just spurred me on and the whole kind of Finding Your Roots bit became more something more than I was passionate about. I've always been proud about Pre in Peruvian, and I think I've always been proud about what that couldn't.

12:35 The country meant maybe, but how I physically looked or how people viewed me physically, that kind of came a bit later. Yeah, it's been gradual and it's been a journey, but I'm glad it's kind of everything feels like it happened at the right time.

12:55 Doesn't feel like I've had like a moment where it's been so overwhelming that I've had almost like a a breakdown or a panic about it. And it's just been gradual and a bite size enough for me to kind of take away, contemplate and and decide what I think about it.

13:12 So you just said that you were proud to be Peruvian. Did you feel a connection to that culture? Did your mom nurture that at all? Or did you just kind of have this innate feeling of connection? No, it's always been there. And then that's, maybe it made it a bit more normal and maybe so.

13:28 I didn't pay that much attention to being proud and Peruvian. I suppose it was, you know, like books on the shelf. She talked to me about Machu Picchu and Peru and obviously Paddings and Bears. I mentioned we had other friends that were Peruvian. So it was quite normal.

13:44 It wasn't like throwing in my face. It kind of felt like a day-to-day thing that I was Peruvian, but only until I guess going to Peru did it kind of then become more like, oh, there are people that look like me. And then it became a reality of actually what it is to be Peruvian rather than just seeing the pictures and knowing a bit about it.

14:07 But that's why I mean by it being gradual, you know, to see the pictures now actually be in the country of Peru and actually. Live in Peru was kind of like, OK, this is what Peruvians actually do day in, day out, kind of. Thing. So do you think that adoptees can heal from that primal separation from their family?

14:25 What do you think? Yeah, I mean, I I respect every decision that my birth mother made, and I think it would be a real shame if. I looked at my birth mother and had anything other than love and respect for her because she made a very, very hard decision and I don't think it was one that she ever would have really wanted to have made.

14:54 But she had no choice. She she can't read. She can't write, you know? And and I I watching my own child come into this world, I can totally appreciate. That desire to want to be attached to your child in those first moments, not separated, So what she would have gone through, I have a huge amount of love and and sympathy for and that's kind of a guess.

15:20 Counterbalance this idea of the other side of the coin where you get that trauma of and all that. What's the word but all the bad stuff around it and all those bad feelings? That kind of counteracts that for me personally, I'd rather listen to the the other side than think about all the bad stuff.

15:40 I don't find that helpful and it's not what's helped my relationship with them. Yeah, everyone's got to start a relationship off on the right foot, and I was never going to go into that on the wrong foot. I would never want to go out of my way to find somebody to tell them how bad I felt about them.

16:00 So it kind of just, yeah. If I felt that badly about it, I don't think I would have gone out of my way at all. But I think, yeah, if you go in with a right attitude. But it sounds like you kind of had that. Yeah. You had that compassion for your birth mother. It sounds like from ever since you can remember, even as a little little guy, you always had that compassion.

16:20 That's amazing. That's a testament to your adoptive mom. Probably. Yeah, I think. She was open, she was honest, and she she laid it out exactly as it was. And I was yet to discover whether that was true or not. I guess coming full circle and discovering it was entirely true.

16:39 The story I was told really solidified the story I was told as a child to what I discovered when I was a teenager about actually what it means to be to Peruvian and see their culture and see their struggles they've had as a country and the people, the struggles they've had so actually meeting. 16:57 My actual birth family and discovering what their particular struggles have been, that absolutely I have full empathy and all of that for them. And then learning obviously that what my mum taught me right in the beginning was absolutely true to brought it full circle.

17:13 That yeah, I've got no bad feelings at all. I'm very lucky. You found your birth family when you were a teenager, No. So. My mum always said to take me when I was 16 to Peru. That was always something like an expectation that I had after my GCSE.

17:29 It was like we'll go backpacking, we'll go to Peru and we did it, proper backpacking. So I always had that in my head. I knew that I was going to go, which was something to look forward to, something to kind of prepare myself for. I didn't. It wasn't sprung upon me. We just saw my country.

17:47 That was at my introduction to my country and it was my choice from there. If I wanted to go and, you know, study there for a year, if I wanted to go and learn Spanish there, if I wanted to, whatever, that was my choice. I didn't in the end want to do anything with it. I was quite happy with just backpacking and I came back home and wanted to be with my friends.

18:05 Then I met my wife. So did you feel a connection? Did you feel a connection, though, to the country when you were there? Absolutely. It was the first time I'd seen Peruvians that obviously they looked like me, but they acted like Peruvians, like the whole mannerisms and their. Just the way Peruvians are, the blase and all that kind of stuff.

18:21 It was totally different shift of culture to England that just being around that was like, this is what it is to be a be a Peruvian, like just so much more in that culture that more than just what I look like. Did you look around wondering like if any of your relatives, you know, you were looking at anyone that you're biologically related to?

18:41 Yeah, absolutely. I looked at lots of people and thought I wonder if I look like them, but I I don't think I would have known them. Yeah, at least I didn't think I would have learnt them. It's known them if I'd seen them, but there was always that kind of thing of maybe I've just walked past them. Yeah, so you went home, went on with your life, and then what finally made you want to search for your biological family?

19:07 So at at 21, I took my wife to Peru. I went, it's my wife to see my culture and to knowing about my adoption had that appreciation. She absolutely being on board with that, she's been dead. Supportive and proud and kind of thinks it's really cool. But she started the whole kind of you're not curious about your better family.

19:26 And I was like, no, no, no. Because they made the decision. I want to respect that. I don't want to be this person, that black, you know, I'm charging into their lives. They might not even know about me. So it's kind of that respect there of like, they might not even know about me. So I'm, I'm kind of leaving.

19:41 I'm OK. I'm happy. I'm OK. That's not rock the boat. We had our kids when I was 25, and that's when my daughter arrived. So it was only a few years, maybe four years after we'd been to Peru and we'd done the whole student thing. That's it was just documentaries.

20:01 There was things on Netflix, there was things. It was like that particular activation. I was suddenly watching things and tuning into things that were about reunions or even cooking shows about Peruvian culture. And it was starting, I think it was during the nine month pregnancy.

20:17 I think that kind of just did it where it was just all the seed was planted about, you know the IVF and everything and it just kind of grew bigger and bigger. And it was COVID in 2020. During COVID, when everyone has time to think that I'll just decided I think I need to know more.

20:40 The information I have right now is fine, but I want to know more. I reached out to somebody who on on YouTube who was an an adoptee from Peru just to ask a bit more information about what it is to be an adoptee from Peru, because that was what she talked about is in the England.

20:57 There's not many others. It's quite a unique thing or a unique group, but it's keen to learn about more about what the what that group was. And so we had a couple of zoom calls. We dug into a little bit more about what would have happened in my process of adoption, what my papers said.

21:16 And then she sort of said, do you want to go any further or are you happy just to know what these documents mean? And there was kind of not going back my curiosity. I kind of opened the door and I'd open up Pandora's box sort of thing by that point.

Open, honest. 21:32 I sat with my mum and explained to her that's what I've been doing. And that was, I think that was what I wanted to do. We had a conversation and she's absolutely you do what you need to do. So she, she basically helped me give me the tools to find them. And yeah, I spent a lot of late nights trolling the most weird and wonderful websites of the world.

21:51 So and translating to trying to find out where they were because I had a picture. I had a picture of my birth mum and my mum together with me. Wow. Though it was like they exist and I had their I found their birth certificates.

22:09 Your original, my original and theirs. So I knew they existed in the world and I found certain things like health insurance or tax codes that led me to. They registered six years ago, so I knew that they existed, but I just, I couldn't get that link between me and them and it became quite frustrating.

22:31 Probably the one time where I was quite like, gosh, I'm going to actually have to just go to Peru because they were kind of, I was not going back to that point, I had to discover who they were to do our lives. And COVID was really badly hit. So Peru was really badly hit by COVID.

22:48 So it felt like time was a big issue. I didn't want to have left it too late by that point. Right. So what happened? Yeah, so I'm just thinking, so yeah, social media is a wonderful thing.

23:05 And I kind of felt like I'd gone the long way round and if I'd just headed to social media, maybe it would have been a lot quicker. Oh, really? There's nothing. I'm not that kind of person on social media that kind of adds random people. I'm probably a bit of a ghost on social media, Facebook.

23:23 But I found one or two people, if you know Spanish people or Latin people, they have like really long names. I found a couple that had like two of the names out of the four that you might need, and I just figured, what's the worst that could happen? Just Adam asked the question.

23:40 I woke up the next morning and and the fellow that I messaged said they knew who this woman was. How did I know this person? So it was a bit elusive. And then I said, well, I think that this woman might be my my birth mother when I was adopted and live in England.

24:02 Time difference. I waited all day. They'd gone to bed by that point. So I'm waiting all day thinking have I just like scared somebody? It was obviously they woke up the next morning to that message and they sent me a picture of me next to him and it was uncanny where which we looked alike.

24:22 And he said, yeah, that's my mum. So I was like, OK, where do we go from there? So that was your brother? Yeah, like it was like the jackpot in one first time. And there there was a there was a lady on Facebook that I thought, if this doesn't work out, I'll message the lady.

24:41 It turned out that she was actually my sister, so if I'd not got through to him, I'd have tried this other lady and this lady I would have hopefully have found. So yeah, very, very lucky. I don't know how many times that must happen, where you you chat on Facebook and you go round and round Yellow Pages or whatever we call it, any Yellow Pages where you go into a directory of thousands and thousands of names.

25:09 I didn't really have many choices. I had a handful of choices on Facebook that I could have messaged and neither of them could have been. And I'd done the whole DNA thing, the ancestry thing, and that kind of came up with nothing. And I thought that would have been my best shot, you know, But and my view is it was meant to be.

25:27 Yeah. So did he go to your mum and tell her or what happened. The culture in Peru is they have the eldest brother or the eldest male is kind of that their leader, he was the younger brother. So he immediately sort of passed me on to the eldest brother and said, look we need to make a call, here's his number, we'll we'll we'll call you sometime.

25:52 Difference again it was like probably 10:00 at night. We had all waited all day, but it was within the like 24 hours of kind of just getting that message to actually meeting them. So we set up like a video call and my friend who'd helped me with the document system, who spoke fluent Spanish, jumps in the car, translated.

26:09 And I think she, she, she does lots of reunions. So she knew exactly what she was doing. I was in good hands. And yeah, I had a chat with him. I think he wanted to just check me out, you know, check that I wasn't going to, you know, because this was his family that he looked after.

26:26 Did they know about you? The elder ones did. The two younger ones didn't. You have older and younger siblings then. So I have 4:00 that are older than me. So the two of those four knew about me. The two of the younger ones would have been sticks in four maybe.

26:45 So they don't really remember, even though one of them is in that picture of me and my my mum and my bathroom. Oh, wow. So they they obviously had to share that information. But as soon as my bad mum was asked that question about there's a kid here who thinks he's your mum, Have you had another baby?

27:06 I was kind of, like, totally honest about it. And the other two siblings were like, yeah, no, I remember that baby or I remember my my mum being pregnant. So they obviously had that conversation where everybody knew, but they, they went in totally with their hearts and their arms wide open.

27:26 He sort of checked, obviously about what my intentions were, I suppose. And I said how much I just wanted to express, you know, love for them and a connection with them and a relationship. And I'm not looking to do anything, you know, malicious or whatever.

27:44 And so he kind of like had his phone because did that cameras on their phone, he kind of just turned his camera around then they were just on a big line outside that house. So I have. I've gone from a mum, well an only an only child and a mum to 18 of them.

28:01 Oh my gosh. So I have like nieces, nephews or my siblings have partners as well. So they have kids. So yeah, all of them. It's kind of like everyone was introducing themselves and waving and it was very overwhelming.

28:16 But I'd never heard a noise quite like as soon as I saw my bad mum, she just my wife always says that noise haunts her because she just kind of wailed when she saw my face. So she was there during that call, yeah.

28:33 So as soon as he kind of checked me out and he said I'm going to walk you over to meet your family, it was like he walked over from the road to the door kind of thing and opened the door and they were all there. And she, yeah, she just put her head in her hands and and and sobbed and asked that I wasn't expecting that on that day that I woke up that morning, right.

28:58 But it was, yeah, life changing. So none of them speak English. So you had to have a translator? Yeah, none of them speak English. My birth mother doesn't read or write. She's an indigenous woman of Peru. To message her, I do video messages for her.

29:17 I do go it through one of my nephews. So we we maintain that connection that way. My father he so they're all together. So my father and my brother stayed together. So they all live together in like, I guess, a community on the same land. They've all built their own little houses next to each other.

29:34 Oh wow. They're a very together family. Yeah, very different to what we have in England. Lots of our families are spread all around. Yeah, since they are so close, you must have felt like that missing piece. Yeah, yeah. If I was missing anything, growing up for nobody's fault.

29:50 I wasn't an only child. I was quite once. I'd lonely. But I didn't have that kind of safety net of a sibling or that kind of busy Christmas rush that you kind of get in the movies to go from that obviously to being part of that kind of family.

30:06 I went from like every day. It was like messages pinging on my WhatsApp from one of my siblings wanting to know about my life. And and then obviously we went, we went and met them in person and that was just something else. Yeah. So tell us about that. So we waited about a year.

30:21 So obviously we're doing COVID. So they were on the Red List for ages. So even though we all too easy to kind of say, right, I'll find my birth and they want to hop on a plane and go and see them, it was a gift in disguise that I couldn't do that because it gave us the time to kind of build a relationship, have lots of video calls, have lots of messages, share music or photos or whatever.

30:43 We were having IVF at the time and a year later, November 2021. I met them in October 2020 and it was November 2021 that we'd realise it hadn't worked out and it was just like a perfect timing where we weren't on any kind of schedule we could just go.

31:00 I told my work, I said I just, I need to go to Peru now, I'm not going to get another shot before Christmas. So I gave them about two weeks notice and they decided just go, just go. So I've got a really supportive work colleagues.

31:17 Then they yeah, we've just did all our flights and hotels and books in November 2021, stayed there for two weeks because it was COVID. Obviously the travel was quite limited. So we literally went straight from Lima to it's called how car where they live in the in the mountains like an internal flight straight there and then straight to our hotel.

31:38 And we didn't, we didn't do anything. We didn't know travel. We'd spent two weeks solid just with them in their land. They weren't in school because of COVID, so I got to spend time with my nieces and nephews. My daughter, who'd been inside the house for the best part of the year, was able to just run free in a field with all of her nieces and nephews.

31:59 So she'd experienced kind of that cousin, sibling kind of relationship, and she thrived in that. We just did dead simple things, you know, We played volleyball in the grass. We'd go out for lunch and my birth woman would cook loads of big pots of food.

32:16 So it sounds like it was pretty comfortable. Like there was, it was like going off grid and just being with each other. Like there was not. There's no distractions. There couldn't be. There was no work or there was little bits of work they were doing. They live off the land, they grow crops, they have animals. So they don't do like a nine to five like we do.

32:34 My dad works six days a week as a chef, but my other siblings run taxis, so they were just they just took time off to be with me, which was really, you know, really nice. So what did you find out about why they put you up for adoption? Did you find anything out additional?

32:51 Yeah. We had a little sort of translator come, and I got to ask some more questions. It was everything that my mom had said that she really, obviously didn't want to. It was like the worst.

33:06 She'd almost blanked it from a memory because it was so traumatic for her that she'd almost kind of just disengaged with the idea that she had another child. She sadly lost two of the children after me that that died. One was in a like a bike accident and the other one was in a school playground, hit his head on a rock.

33:29 And so when those incidents happened, she looked back and remembered me. And so I thought that she was being punished for what she did, letting me go, but that she just that had no choice. She had no support. My dad at the time would wasn't there.

33:50 She had four kids to look after and she's punished herself ever since for it. But she, yeah, she was happy that I, as long as I was happy kind of thing. They always kept saying to me like Frankie or Tranquila.

34:06 It's calm. Be calm, like, and everybody just needs to be calm. Don't need to. It's not about digging up old stuff. But if you're calm, you're happy, then I'm calm and I'm happy. So there was kind of that kind of discussion where we talked about things in depth, but we didn't want to go too deep into certain things because it was wasn't helpful to kind of ask her so deep questions about what she'd have gone through at that time.

34:34 Because I didn't need to know. I don't know what happened when she gave birth to me. I didn't need to know how many days she stayed in Lima or whatever. I mean, yesterday crossed my mind, but I didn't need to know that level of information. I think I got out of it enough to know that I was told to write a story and I had every sympathy for her, and it didn't change my view.

34:59 There was nothing that they said that kind of made me think I disbelieved them or I didn't respect them or I didn't want to know them or I changed my mind. It was, it was. I got enough information out of that conversation to to to sort of consolidate that I made the right. Decision. So when you met them and spent all that time with them, it seemed like it was pretty seamless, like everything felt, I don't want to say normal, but felt right.

35:22 There was no awkwardness or anything like that. Did you? I think if there was any awkwardness we're vegan and and so they eat animals. They live off their land. That was really awkward presented with a a Guinea pig fresh on your plate. But no, I think they they really embraced.

35:46 My family could tell that for for what they had to offer as as people they gave me they offered everything that they could. I mean, the best way they knew how to, like in England, maybe we would try, you know, try and get the most expensive champagne.

36:01 You know, we'd try and go and get the best. There was none of that. It was just really authentic. They kind of gave whatever they could. And yeah, I mean, as holidays go, it was like it was everything I could have asked for from them. Yeah, it sounds really, really unbelievable when I say that.

36:21 But you'd have to see all the pictures and you'd have to see all the videos and trust me, we've got, we've documented everything. And every time I look back on that, I it feels like it didn't happen because it was almost too unreal. Because on Wait You are. I get what you're saying, You're kind of sort of waiting for something to go to not be true or to not be quite so real and well, don't get me wrong, they're not perfect.

36:43 They they have their own struggles, you know with work or in the family. And you did get a bit of gist of that with the dynamics of certain people. But they they cut out quite a a large number of their family members on certain sides that were bad influences.

37:02 They expressed that certain people were maybe not kind and they were hurtful. So I think they've made a conscious decision at some point in their lives that they just wanted to be together themselves as a family and not have any distraction to that to give their own kids a good chance.

37:21 She's very much what I do as a parent, I know. Right. Yeah. So out of this meeting with your biological family, a business was born, yes? So tell us about that. How did that come about? Bizarre. Really bizarre.

37:38 Obviously I knew when I was going there that they didn't have much. I knew that they weren't like leaving in a nice penthouse apartment. And we had sort of me and my wife had discussed like, I wouldn't it be nice to do something to to help them or so because we COVID, when they didn't work, they just didn't get any money and I really felt felt for them in that respect.

38:01 They never asked for money, so I just really felt for them that the difficulties that they face because I knew in this country if I'm ill I'm just my work pays for me to have a week off, it's not that way in Peru at all. So we had talked about it. We know that was kind of quite a loose discussion when we got there.

38:20 I wanted cushions for my own house. I'd looked online at on on America. When I get that material to someone in England could make them. It was just really expensive. So I said, like, if we did get to go to a market, I'd love to see if they sell cushions.

38:39 We never got to a market and it was probably like the third day before we'll be about to go home. And I'd kind of trot it down so we don't need souvenirs. The memories are great. So we went to one of my brother's house and he was cooking and it was just like a big cloth with something underneath it.

38:59 And I just asked him what was under it and he took his cloth off and it was just ginormous sewing machine like, and I don't mean like a little single one. I mean like a proper big one. And I said, who? No one's ever told me that Any of you guys use it. What is it? And how, you know, what do you do? And they, they had like a little side business where they sewed up pants or made little bits of clothing for people.

39:23 And that's when it was like, hang on, if we get some material for the market, can you make me a cushion? And literally the next day, then they presented me with some dinner and I was like, wow, OK And I went home and leaving was the hardest thing.

39:41 Leaving was the hardest thing. And I was going home on the fight. And me and my wife were obviously talking about, wow, what a real thing that was. And we said, well, how do we keep this going? So we we, we said that, well we could do something that we could do a business with this.

39:59 We were talking and it took three months before we kind of talked ourselves into actually doing a business. And we presented it to them and said, look, we want to do this because people in England, you know, they don't get to see these kind of products. We can really be creative with this.

40:14 I work in design. We can get really creative with these products and do things that no one's ever seen before. It's not something you could get even in Peru. And they were like what people really want to see that like because they just sort of pants they're like comprehended the idea that you could make a basket or something.

40:34 And so they they were really on board with it. They've had a lot of trust in me that they you know that it was worth doing and it's also a way at which I can share my story. So I go to markets. That's how we started off in market doing, doing St. markets. And people would come over and they'd ask where is this stuff from?

40:51 And I get to talk about my own country and I get to talk about my adoption. I get to talk about the love that me and my my siblings and my family have. And you just sort of see people's faces go, Oh my goodness, yeah, I didn't know. Yeah, that's what happened to me. You gave me the link and I went on there and I did the same thing I emailed you.

41:10 I was like, wait, what? Yeah, exactly. But when you see that, you feel like, OK, I've just imparted something onto somebody. Like people have come away with a nice feeling. And that's when I get to tell them that that the people either love their products or people love them as people.

41:28 And what they've done for me. And because they've taught me as much as I've as much as it sounds like I've got a business and I sell that product, they that what I get from them, what they teach me is equally as advantageous as as as the products themselves and what they'll teach my daughter.

41:45 So how did they learn how to make all those things? I mean, if they were just selling or if they were just sewing pants, how did they learn how to and what's available? Like, what are you guys selling? So we do. I, I, I do drawings. So I would say whatever size it needs to be at the dimensions.

42:01 And she's just fantastic. She we've thrown all sorts of stuff out. There's only one thing she's ever said She she's tried and she can't make it. We've thrown loads of stuff out and she's just gone off, made her own template and given it a go. So but she learned from her well.

42:19 So it's like a family thing that's been learned and passed down. And so she kind of the reason why the cover was over there, over the sewing machine was kind of because she just thought no one's really interested in what I'm doing and not really not expressing what craft she has. And then when this project came along, it was like, well, actually, I've got something I can be creative with, something that I can have a go at and make something beautiful.

42:46 So, so she gets as much fun out of doing it, I think, because that's obviously what it. So has that changed their life in any way? Are they getting like some extra income from that? Yeah, Yeah. So they have no kind of system. If you don't have no work or there's no shifts, that's it.

43:04 So there's no kind of backfall. So this is something that I'd love it to be something that's a full time job. I'd love it to be something that it gets bigger, where they have a really regular income. That's kind of our aim. But for now it's something where they've got that rainy day pot of money where you know, if something bad happens, they've got something to go to.

43:26 That's kind of where it's where it's gone. So they had last year, they wanted to build their own houses, so they all live in something they rented and they've been renting that for probably 7 years. So it was a big thing they've always wanted and aspired. This is their goal in life, to just have their own house and I say house, it's like a single brick with a sheet on top.

43:45 It's a very, very simple house. But that something they can call their own. They've moved on now to be able to actually do that. So they've built that and everything that they do from here on out or just get added to it. So they may get a window or they may get some flooring down or a carpet or something.

44:05 So yeah, it's something that, it's drip fed. The more customers we get, obviously the more that we can give. We've done in our first year we did about three or four orders with them. And then this year we've managed to introduce my other brother into the business who is the he's the gaffer, he's the eldest, he's kind of his skills are in management and negotiating and coordinating these eighteen family members.

44:31 And he, I said to him, do you know any other craft people in your community that we can help? And he said my best friend, his, his, his mum does goods. So that's the carvings on the on the vegetables. I said send me some pictures of what they do. He sent them and it was like, yeah.

44:48 And he said you can you can design anything on these things because they do it all by hand. And he said, well, could you do some pride ones for me? Or could you do someone with nursery rhymes on? And they said, just draw it and we'll do it. So we've been drawing all sorts of wonderful things like positive affirmations, very cool Humpty Dumpty.

45:08 And just like my my sister and the sister-in-law, they've just took it on the chin and gone. Let's give it a go. They've never really thought about that idea before. It's like it's a bit weird but they've given it a go and in the end they've gone. Like that, right. So what's the vision of this business?

45:26 Where do you want it to go? And it'd be lovely to have the brand and the story about adoption kind of hand in hand, spread across the world where people can see from adoption can come something really beautiful, an equal relationship.

45:45 And people look at our products and go, I remember that guy in that story, and I can dig deep about whatever situations going on in that house, in their home, in their life. I can look at that and go, you know what, not that bad or it could be really wonderful.

46:01 So let's just, you know, stuff and think. Yeah, What's the name of your business? If we're called Peru Interiors, we do home furnishings, so baskets, cushions, wall arts, ornaments, maracas, instruments.

46:18 We're about to do yoga range, so yoga cushions, yoga bags. But my, my sister-in-law just had her second baby, so, So she's in the phase over over Christmas where she'll be resting and recouping, but she's kind of itching to get back into it.

46:38 And we're saying, no, just take your time. There's going to be plenty of things in the new year that are going to be coming and you can you can get stuck in. Right. And so where who can get this stuff right now? Because I know you said you were in the expanding to Etsy coming up soon, so.

46:55 What's going on now and then where do you see that going? So we have our own website which is Peru interiors.co.uk, which has like a shock to itandobviously.co.uk. We're kind of English based or Great Britain.

47:12 We have got an Etsy shop and on that Etsy shop, we're just looking now into making it European and obviously they're worldwide available. So yeah, at watch this space that we get many requests from people in Europe interested and we have to sort of say we're not quite there yet.

47:33 It's mainly it's mainly to do with all the legalities around it. So we're trying to start. Because I was thinking, you know, World Market and all these other stores that might, you know, be interested in that kind of stuff. Yeah, I think they would, but.

47:49 Yeah, it could get big. It could get huge. Yeah. We have some big department stores in England that it'd be fantastic to get them into, but they're bright, they're colourful, but maybe not for everybody. It's very bohemian. So yeah, it's finding our, finding people who appreciate that.

48:06 When we do, we do market stalls and we do pop up shops. At the moment we've got our stuff in a pop up shop in a couple of malls over Christmas, so I don't actually have to be there. They they man it, which is ideal with two kids. I don't want to take them to the pocket at Christmas time.

48:21 It's busy. So yeah, we want to branch out from doing markets and doing public shops, but actually be in the retail industry essentially, where my family can then get a regular income from that rather than me doing an ad hoc whenever we do a market or whatever. Yeah.

48:38 Wow, that's crazy. That's probably the most successful reunion story that I've ever heard. It's wasn't really the plan. I have to be honest. I'm not a business person. I said all the time I've been told not to say that because you are you obviously you have a business. But yeah, that's not my background. I am now.

48:54 Yeah, I like I said, I do design. I I, I do a nine to five job. I work, you know, I work for somebody else. That's not me. And if any, a lot of my colleagues probably think they do think I'm a bit mental, but for for engaging in actually having a business because it's a lot of hard work, but it's from from the height, from passion and it keeps us talking.

49:16 We talk all the time because we're not talking about business or our families and we've got stuff to talk about. And also it's a motivation to go back. So we want to go back to Peru next year and see them and meet my new, meet my new nephew, meet the other maker that we're working with.

49:34 So there's a lot of good stuff to come with with the business and actually been able to get back out there because it's not cheap, it's expensive. Yeah, Yeah, I know. So it just kind of sounds like that this was meant to be.

49:50 I mean, like the way it just all kind of fell together, you know, and then just how the business grew out of that. It's kind of like it was all in the plan all along. Even though you didn't see it, it sounds like it was. Yeah, just have to kind of go with the calling that's there because I, I, we are very busy people.

50:10 We don't. I don't remember what time, what what we did when it was just me and my. Wife I really don't remember and we were saying to myself what do, how do people will say like how do you even do it? Like how do you how do you work full time how do you run your family how do you do the business how do you show up for all that.

50:29 But it was meant to be and and if I if I carry on doing it, I get such pleasure out of doing it. It's fulfilling. I get something from it. What do you think helped you? I mean, I keep just going back and thinking about your adoptive mom. It had to be her because I'm like you just kind of didn't really have a lot of hang ups with the, you know, as being an adoptee.

50:51 It kind of just all evolved and you were just so accepting of the whole thing, seems like the whole time. Did you have anything that really hung you up or kind of threw you a curveball? Well, look at her face. Honestly, when I see her, she's such an innocent, humble woman of the mountains.

51:11 Like there's really nothing complicated really to her. She she comes at me with big open arms and just wants to love me. When someone just wants to love me and doesn't want anything else but just to have my love.

51:27 Like my my wife said that when we were having meals or when I was with my siblings, she would, she'd actually spot my my birth mum sort of just staring blankly at me with my siblings, and she said she'd captured lots. There was moments when we were in the field where just those moments having an outsider's view, I suppose, on what was actually happening, kind of validated was real.

51:51 It wasn't like we weren't pretending that we loved each other and we weren't pretending to be a happy family. There was those moments where you you spot it that you don't even know you're in it. No, she really, it's a really humble, loving woman and I'm really honoured that she's, she is my my best home and that she's still alive.

52:12 She's still here. She's still very much part of the family. She's the matriarch of the family. When it comes to her and my dad, yeah, I have a huge amount of respect for her. Her life like me aside, and losing her other two kids, she's had a really, really difficult life.

52:34 You can see where in her face Peruvian women don't often smile, but when she's with me, there's pictures of when she's with me and she's really, truly smiling. And so, yeah, it's very evident to see that she's just got love to give.

52:50 She's just got. She's got nothing, nothing there that she wants to harm me with. And I don't have anything there that I want to go in with. And there are things when I look back, I think it all happened at the right time, like if I wouldn't, I wouldn't think I would have been ready or comfortable finding them any sooner than 29th.

53:10 Maybe not. It's not old, but it's not young. And I think it wouldn't have been as as it was if it had happened when I was 17 or or even when I was 20 or 21. That wouldn't have been. I think I'd have felt quite comfortable and not ready for it so. 53:30 Yeah, yeah. Well, that's a crazy story, but in closing I was asked the same question. What would you like struggling adoptees to know? I'd really well, I I think it's parents. I'd love people who are parents of adoptees to know that if you have that open and honest relationship and you give that love and sincerity and and respect of that adoptees, country culture, whatever it may be from born from that could be something really spectacular.

54:05 And between that relationship between a parent and child could be something really beautiful in the long term. Not just in that, you know, raising that child but in the long term. And for adoptees I guess, that are struggling that maybe haven't had that experience that I've had just carry love and and respect for yourself.

54:27 And if there are people out there I guess that have trauma. I am obviously deeply saddened to hear that people haven't had. As I've heard some stories where it hasn't been as they do it. But they you as a person, your story.

54:46 You can tell yourself your own story. Tell yourself that you are good enough. You're loved by whoever it may be. It doesn't have to be your birth family that love you. If I hadn't found my birth family, my, my, my friends, you know there were people in my life, my aunties, my uncles that loved me and they were just good enough for me.

55:07 You don't need just focus on people that love you and and everybody else doesn't matter. Yeah, that positive mindset is a big deal and just like you said, I was looking at the glass half full type of attitude is big too, so.

55:25 Thank you for sharing your story because it's so nice to hear a positive reunion story and and even just going farther than that with his business and everything. And I I really, really hope that it does expand because there's some things on there I want absolutely well.

55:44 I want to buy some. I know, I know, America's interested. I'll be. I'll be doing my, my work. I'll be doing my graft into how we can get and branch out to the world. Yeah, because like I said, it's, it's the message as well. It's not just the products, it's the message. Definitely. Oh yeah, it's the whole package. It's just like, like I said, I had to e-mail you back after I went on your website and read the story.

56:03 I was just like, what? That's crazy. Even as adoptees like when I look at that, when I look at our own products and and it brings a smile to my face because obviously my own story but it brings a smile about like I'm good enough. I am it. It was a it becomes a personal thing, like I am good enough and I feel good about this.

56:22 I feel good about my country. I feel it's that reminder of whatever it is I feel good about. It's that kind of key point that takes me straight back to all those good feelings that I might not be able to describe, but it just all feels nice. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on and sharing your really special story today, Carlos.

56:41 No, thank you so much for having me. It's been nice to share. It is so great to hear a positive reunion story. And how more positive can you be than having Carlos's story? I mean, it was so meant to be and how he blessed his biological family's life by helping them start a business.

57:05 And I encourage you to go on the website and look at some of the beautiful items that are for sale. And if you can buy them, if you're lucky enough to be in an area that you can buy them, please support Carlos and his family.

57:21 And Carlos was kind enough to send me a picture of him with his biological mother, and then another picture of him with his adoptive mother, and just the look on all of their faces, how happy they are to have each other in their lives.

57:38 It's just something that we don't see in adoptee land very often. And I just love this story. I wish I could clone Carlos's positivity. And just the outlook that he has on life and on adoption, he's just so caring, kind and wise in his thinking about everything that's happened to him.

58:01 And I see a great future for this business that he and his family have started. In closing, today November is coming up which is adoptee awareness Month and. I will be doing some short videos this month that you can watch.

58:21 I will also be doing some specials on my SMGI sessions and I will tell you more about that next week. As always, take what you need and leave what you don't. And always remember to mind your own karma.

58:38 I'll see you next time. Close